Clifford Performance: Any Experience?

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 05/18/2017 at 19:27 • Filed to: None

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They make bodacious claims, like 25+ mpg, 330+ lb/ft of tork and 80% of that off idle. With their 264 cam, of course...

CaptDale - is secretly British > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/18/2017 at 19:30

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That seems like a lot of promised power.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > CaptDale - is secretly British 05/18/2017 at 19:37

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I can check their claims for about two grand plus some seals and machining.

TheHondaBro > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/18/2017 at 19:44

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If it’s good enough for a big red dog, it’s good enough for a car.

CaptDale - is secretly British > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/18/2017 at 19:44

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What is this going on?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > CaptDale - is secretly British 05/18/2017 at 20:06

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My ‘71 GMC Van

CaptDale - is secretly British > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/18/2017 at 20:11

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Yeah, that seems like too good a claim to be true

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/18/2017 at 20:25

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i havent dealt with clifford, but inline 6 have always been limited on breathing with the small one and two barrel intakes that they came equipped with, that along with the small single exhaust. once you open those up, along with the cam.

i can see the 300-ish lb foot, along with an engine that should have some VERY nice midrange pull to it. i would probably look for long tube headers to keep the low end torque, but opening it up with those headers will improve the mid range......

should feel like an entirely different van........

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/18/2017 at 20:58

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I don’t know anything about them, but I’d take that with a grain of salt... on the other hand they aren’t doing anything everyone else doesn’t do, so if the numbers are comparable to other companies offerings for a reasonable price, you probably can’t go wrong.

Just my $0.02

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > TheHondaBro 05/18/2017 at 20:59

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But what about Emily?

sn4cktimes > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/18/2017 at 21:12

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Disclaimer: this is all second-hand information, and I don’t have the links anymore to back them up.

I was looking up Clifford stuff for my AMC Eagle as it has the same 4.2L 258 block as the last generation CJ, through the YJ and into the TJ years. Different head than the TJ though. And Clifford makes/made stuff for that engine at one point. One of the AMC forum users, and one YJ forum user both had a very similar experience of the exhaust headers cracking near the collector very soon after install and experiencing a lot of tuning problems with the carburetors they were supplied. Both seemed to get lots of support to rectify the issues at first; but both people eventually got tired of the scenario, removed them and went different directions.

The YJ user went with a MasterCraft carb with an emissions bypass and I think Borla headers... if I’m remembering correctly. And the AMC user went with a Webber (still had problems, less though) with an emissions bypass and went back to the stock exhaust manifold at the time. Both were working better sans Clifford setups. But that was AMC/Jeep stuff.

There didn’t seem to be a lot of actual trustworthy reviews of Clifford stuff for the block I have so I’ve steered clear. I’m going with CompCams, Edelbrock head, and a multi-point fuel injection kit to solve my rebuild problems. The header is still up in the air. I’d like to go with some long TJ headers (they match the new head), just not sure about fittement into an Eagle yet. Might have to go shorties and get creative with the pipe bends after the collector flange.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 02:25

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Hey Stranger! Thanks for the note. That Clifford stuff looks too good to be true, but I’ll most likely give them a try.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 03:27

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330ft-lb from a head with siamesed inlet ports, 2 carbs so you’re likely to get some sort of funky fuelling going on, and a 6-2-1 header so the exhaust pulses are fighting each other rather than doing proper exhaust scavenging in a 6-3-1 (6-2-1s can work, but you tend to need high rpm for them which is not what you have in a big old American 6).

Call me skeptical, although it’s possible through sheer displacement.

Despite it not really being the right design of stuff, i do expect it would be miles better than the stock stuff though :) so don’t let me put you off! Especially seeing as i doubt people make triple-carb manifolds and 6-3-1 headers for vans!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 05/19/2017 at 11:13

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http://www.shop.cliffordperformance.net/X-Pipe-225-8-Torque-Gains-09-0250.htm

They claim 8% torque gain with this X-pipe, and I think it addresses what you were talking about with the exhaust pulses fighting each other.

I am inclined to drop the dought and do the Clifford breathing thing. Maybe not the cam yet... Leave the long block together, since it only has 80k miles on it.

www.tinyurl.com/vandurapics

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 11:34

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HOWDY,

i know it sounds too good, but just try to continuously breathe through a drinking straw, and thats what your inline has been trying to do its whole life. thier nkumbers might seem a bit optomistic, but they are not that far off.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 12:15

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Good morning. There’s also an X-pipe that I think would be very important.

http://www.shop.cliffordperformance.net/X-Pipe-225-8-Torque-Gains-09-0250.htm

If you can spare a moment to read, let me tell you what my plan is and ask for your thoughts:

The body has surface rust in a number of spots, particularly right over the windshield. As well, the front doors are a complete shambles with useless regulators and I think the hinges have issues. Big surface rust there also. As well, the weather stripping on every opening is completely shot.

The original owners had it running last summer, they claim, and there are new parts all over the place, including rebuilt carb, new distributor, fuel pump, brakes and more, as well as fresh oil in the crankcase. The radiator has crustaceans inside and I want to have it recored and an additional row-or two-of tubes installed. I am inclined to stick with the copper/brass original, which is the same size as the radiator for the big block, but with fewer rows.

The transmission is a three-speed manual, three-on-the-tree and the linkage is currently messed up. My plan is to replace that trans with a World Class T5 trans, and I may have found one in a yard in West Virginia; waiting to hear back from them. Floor shift, ‘93 S10 with the shifter at the front of the tail case.

PLAN OF ATTACK:

Pull the power train.

Body:

Remove the windshield and the rubber seal that holds it in place.

Sand blast the surface rust and prime and top with a similar color.

Renovate the front doors, incl. sandblasting the rust and priming and topping.

Replace the weather stripping throughout.

Sandblast and prime and top interior surface rust that resulted from leaking rubber door seals.

Strip, clean and paint the engine compartment, dog house and dash.

Fit new ball joints, tie rod ends and bushings.

Keep stock (original owner opted for disc brakes up front when they ordered the van) brakes, initially.

Drivetrain:

I’m going to go with the Clifford parts, I think. Question of the day: shave the head and replace the cam and lifters since the engine is already out? Other than making sure it runs, I am not interested at all in driving the thing anywhere with the stock intake/exhaust setup. All of 150 horsepower, I think. Maybe a tad fewer.

Steam clean the engine thoroughly.

Replace main seals, oil pan gasket, valve cover gasket and the crankcase side cover gaskets, whatever those little panels are called.

Reinstall and provide for the transmission shifter to protrude through the floor.

THOUGHTS:

To me, it makes zero sense to do anything mechanical to the thing without first arresting the decay of the body and making it so that nobody thinks they’ll catch cooties sitting in it, and not allowing any more rain to leak in. I haven’t found any rustthrough anywhere because California.

What do you think?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 12:38

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What about upgrading the suspension or brakes to those of a heavier van?

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 13:00

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Question of the day: shave the head and replace the cam and lifters since the engine is already out?

shouldnt need to shave the head. BUT as long as you are planning to have it off it wont hurt. also put some fresh valve seals on, and lap them back in to get a fresh seal.

those covers are called inspection covers, and you will most definitely be happy once you get the engine sealed up nice, so that it is not bleeding oil.

IF IT WERE ME........... AND IT IS NOT....... i would try to fire it up, AS IS with the parts that it has on it.( it should run without having to put any real money into it) more or less pour a little gas down the carb, hook up the battery and see if it will fire and run. if it does, id hook up a gas can to the fuel pump and see if it would stay running, and take a good listen to it for anything out of sorts, check oil pressure, that kind of fun stuff. and i would get it sound enough to be able to run it around the block. that way i would have a “baseline” of sorts. THEN i would get the new mechanical engine bits on. it will feel like an entirely different van. AFTER the mechanical bits are on and its running well, THEN i would go after the body rust......... THE REASON BEING, that it is very easy, and extremely frustrating to get a body right, and painted, only to have someone scratch it or ding it while working on it. and its a whole lot easier than you might think.

nothing wrong with making progress on the body. seals and regulators , fixing rust spots. but i would hold off on any kind of final paint until it is mechanically done.

it is also a lot easier to stay interested/excited about a project when you can take it for a run around the block.

nothing wrong with how you are wanting to approach the project. you are probably more of a fit and finish kind of guy. which is good. for me the thrill is making it run

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 13:23

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i have found (and i mean ME PERSONALLY) that it all depends on how you REALLY intend to use the van. also how you drive contributes a great deal.

i USED to drive like all my friends did. follow real close, brake late. and then i had a couple of close calls(near misses), and i changed the way in which i drive. instead of driving like a moron, i give people more room, because an old truck doesnt stop short. and i know that it isnt a sportscar around corners, so i dont ask it to carve the mountain roads on the way to work........ yes i can make it stop in a hurry, stand on the brakes, and downshift. itll stop quick, but im not trying to take dumb chances.

the brakes and suspension on it now, are probably more than “adequate” for 90% of the real world driving that you are going to do. if i was set on doing much to them, i would maybe put a brake booster on it for cushy, less pedal effort stopping, and some new shocks, and if i was just spending money to spend money, an anti sway bar for it. (i personally like the mechanical non power brakes on my truck)

the early disc brakes stop decent. just have to respect the limits that they have.........

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 13:57

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Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’m only talking about arrested decay on the body. NOTHING like a finished paint job. Just top the primer spots with something similar to what’s there. I just want to stop the rust and keep the rain out.

Yes, and with regard to running it first, you are not the first person to give me that advice and it makes sense. The thing I do not want is to spend any amount of time or miles driving it in its current state. The power train like it is is lame. But I will definitely take your advice on the run-it-up deal. I think those shiny, perfect car bodies are a big waste of time and money.

I want a van that is utile and juvenile . I want to be able to drive it across the country as well as do a proper burnout. And maybe some gymkana...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 14:04

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So you’re not down for $2,000 worth of Wilwood brakes?

I was also thinking about installing a vacuum boost. I’m also thinking that ultimately, when I decide on a final drive ratio and get a posi rear end for it, that I’ll look into a disk brake mod for the rear at that time.

I am 100% with you on the driving manners part. I own a ‘97 Safari and I installed a fatter sway bar up front, and an aftermarket sway bar in the rear, as well as adding a leaf in the back. And the thing drives famously well. (The Astro/Safari is also one of the most notoriously crash-unsafe cars on the road, but let’s not go there.) Famously well. I’ve owned that van ten years and driven it 100k miles and taken my family from the Pacific to the Atlantic and back THREE TIMES! in it and I will shed real tears when the time comes that for whatever reason, I can drive it no more.

This is all very sound advice and we see things similarly.

Regarding the heads: The engine only has 80k miles on it. If it builds and holds good compression, could I just run with it for a while?

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 14:14

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i have a great admiration and appreciation for shiny paint. i live down a mile and a half of dusty dirt road, with tree branches reaching in. shiny paint is something i cant have. so i settle for getting the body straight,  and calling it good. osphos(rust converter) goes a long ways towards getting things ready......

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 14:39

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if it builds and holds good compression, it should be fine. i would still put in a fresh set of valve seals.(if you are sneaky you can do it without pulling the head off)

that cam should wake up the engine.

when it does come time to decide on a final drive ratio, i recommend using a good set of calculators, and using whatever rpm is around the bottom/middle of your engine’s power band in 1:1 gear and calculate THAT rpm to a decent cruising speed like 60, 65. that way the engine should be happily cruising along without being pushed too hard, or being lugged down beneath its power range. one of my FAVORITE web pages is   wallace racing . there are a whole bunch of different calculators for figuring out tricky stuff. its all just basic math, but here the work is all pretty much done for you. it saves a few minutes of a guys life. i dont mind working the math myself, but sometimes its about as quick to find on-line calculators, as it is to find the raw formulas.....

and i know how you feel about when the “family car” dies. ill be sad when mine goes too. i have enough donor parts laying around to keep it zombied for a long time to come......

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 14:45

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How do you feel about that dual Weber configuration? Clifford swears up and down they come out of the box ready to bolt on and drive, and that adjusting them is child’s play. (They also promise to come to my house and give me a foot rub, but that part I don’t really expect to happen.)

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 15:04

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i have been fairly impressed with carb companies’ ability to actually make carbs bolt on ready.

they are not too complex. maybe like a rochester in terms of the float and needle and seats. SO LONG AS you run a couple of GOOD quality filters in front of your carb(too keep any rust, or grit, or trash out) you shouldnt have any trouble out of them. i think that i have three, and a sediment bowl. its an OLD tank. the sediment bowl catches all the big stuff, it has a magnet in it too. then there is a filter right after it. right in front of my carb i have 2 more fuel filters. i have only had to change the filter closest to the carb once in 10 years due to it being clogged. have had zero issues with the carbs as a result of keeping them as clean as that i am able...

webbers like those came on a lot of cars. there will be lots of rebuild kits available should you ever be in need of one(though you shouldnt).

and companies have gotten good about product testing. like giving some of their guys THE kit, only some basic hand tools, and telling them to get after it. i am amazed at how far “ready to bolt on” has come. there is a good chance they will go right on......and work.........

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 15:17

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I think that Clifford wants me to replace the lifters when I install the cam. This would necessitate removing the head, wouldn’t it?

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 15:45

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yes, you have to replace the lifters. lifters “wear-in” to whatever lobe that they are on. when you pull a cam out, if you are going to re-use it and the lifters, you have to keep them in order of the lobes, to be able to put them back in the same places. not putting them back in the correct places can result in a “wiped lobe” or essentially a lobe that has lost its bump. there is a fairly easy way to break in cams. but it has to be done correctly.

you dont have to remove the head........ you just take off the valve cover, loosen all the rockers enough to pull out the push rods. or take off the rockers. then you take off the inspection covers, and you can get right to the lifters. usually a good pair of needlenose pliers is all you need. sometimes flatjawed vice grips or a mechanics pick to get them to start out. after you have them all out, you pull the balancer, and the timing cover. there is a plate that keeps the cam in the block. its held in with 2 screws, that you get to behind the cam gear holes. take out the distributor. usually just line up the timing marks when you pull the cam out. then when you put the new one back in, its already in about the right spot. the cam gear has to be pressed on and off, usually by a machine shop. if you can find one get the metal cam gear. if not, no big deal.

there is a bit of a specific break in procedure for a new cam, making sure the rockers arent too tight. but the most important part of it involves running the engine for 20 minutes at above 2000 rpm continuously making sure to vary the rpm some. thats why it would really help to make sure that the rest of the engines stuffs is in working order by running it before you try swapping parts........ theres more to it, but none of it is difficult.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 16:07

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That is very helpful; thank you. I’ve pulled many cylinder heads albeit more than thirty years ago, and disassembled a head one time. But I’ve never broken in a cam, nor dug deeply enough into an engine to do what you describe. My most involved such project was replacing the diesel injection pump on a VW diesel engine. I got it right, by the way...

There’s an interesting story to that. California changed its motor diesel formulation in order to reduce the amount of sulfides produced. They took out the sulfur and in so doing, reduced the lubricity of the fuel. Injector pumps all over the state began to fail. There was talk in the early days of that fiasco of some money being made available for reimbursements, so I saved my receipt. It took the CARB over a year to approve the monies. Once they did, I had my receipt, and I got my $325 refunded. Pretty cool, eh?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Die-Trying 05/19/2017 at 19:54

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Thank you very much for all of the helpful input you’ve typed me today. I will take your advice and drive that engine around a bit to make sure it’s solid. And then I’ll put it on a stand and give it a thorough treatment and a five-speed. Do you mind if I bug you some more about it as the time approaches?

Die-Trying > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/19/2017 at 22:45

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oh, its no problem. bug me whenever you get ready.

you wont have to drive it around, but it WILL need to run for the full 20 min for the break in. and its nice to know that it will stay running for that long without issues, before you get started.

i have fun working on the old stuff so its all good entertainment. i try to make sure that i put it down as best i can recall having done it, AND not skip over anything important(details details details). there are a couple of steps in there, like the initial adjusting of the valves, and setting the timing on the distributor so that it starts right up. nothing too hard about any of it, but you just have to do it correctly. youll get it, youll see.....

and i remember when they changed the diesel. just about everybody down here had an injector pump go down. good time$......

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/20/2017 at 04:22

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Sort of yeah. It’s a kludge though. What you’ve got there is pulses from the 6-2-1 arriving at the wrong time still fighting each other, and then a pulse from the x-pipe meeting each other at the right place (hopefully, if it’s in the right place in the system to hit a decent rpm range).

They’re popular on cross-plane V8s because it’s not possible to do proper exhaust pulse tuning on them without a massive viper’s nest of tubes heading under the sump. However, on I4s, I6s and flat-plane V8s you can do it properly :)

Don’t get me wrong, I still think it’s a good idea, and will definitely still help your engine :) it just baffles me why more people don’t make proper exhausts for I6s. Even BMW gives their M3s 6-2-1s when a 6-3-1 produces a noticeable bump in torque throughout the rev range. Even aftermarket suppliers are lazy for them, making flawed 6-2-1s and charging through the nose for it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 05/20/2017 at 08:53

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What would a proper exhaust look like?

Dave the car guy , still here > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/22/2017 at 13:16

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Not sure but I learned years ago the good ole’ boy way for figuring x or h pipe placement. You first build the car as dual exhaust. Paint both exhaust pipes at least up to headers. Drive it for a while to get the heat burning off the paint. That point where the paint burning stops is where the H pipe goes or center of the x pipe. If other stuff is in the way then you strive for closest to that point for best gains. I helped do this on a Fox body Mustang swapped from 4 cyl. to V8. Was under car for marking pipes for the cutting.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Dave the car guy , still here 05/22/2017 at 13:34

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Point where the burning stops; do you mean fore or aft end of the burn?

Sounds like a great plan.

Dave the car guy , still here > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/22/2017 at 14:21

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We placed center of H pipe diameter at the line where the paint stopped burning. Seemed to work because this Stang of my friends makes awesome power.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Dave the car guy , still here 05/22/2017 at 14:50

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Right. It’s going to burn from the manifold back and where it stops, H-pipe there. I had to actually don the thinking cap, rather than just look at it.

In the meantime, I may have stumbled onto a 2012 Versa with 66k miles and a blown engine that I can have for maybe $2k. Maybe even less. An LKQ engine for that car is around $800. I might be able to turn a profit on that if I swap the engine myself. The owners are friends from church.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/29/2017 at 04:52

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Sorry! Missed this somehow. If you want proper exhaust resonance tuning you want pipes that connect cylinders 1-6, 2-5, and 3-4. You want them equal length so the pulses interact at the same rpm range for all cylinders, and for a low revving engine like yours you want the primaries to be long. Here’s a very spangly Triumph manifold which is about right:

Now saying that it is rather bloody expensive, so if you’re just looking for a reasonable bump in power then a 6-2-1 will be better than an old log manifold :) i just don’t want you paying top-dollar (if that’s what the company’s offering) for a manifold that’s a flawed design.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 05/30/2017 at 17:17

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Sorry for the delay in replying. You sound quite knowledgeable on this. From the picture up top, it looks like this manufacturer is doing 1-2-3, 4-5-6. There is also a cast iron 3+3 exhaust manifold offered by Tom Langdon. Do you have any idea what the cost would be to make a custom header?

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/31/2017 at 12:05

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No worries, and thanks :) it’s mainly because a fair amount of work has been done on Triumph I6s to try and squeeze power out of them as there’s not much headroom.

I’m not sure on the price of a custom header as I’m a bit of the DIY type so I was planning on making mine myself. Probably not cheap unfortunately.

I’d say a 6-2-1 with a split exhaust system would be better than one where they all join up, but I’d have to do some working out for the resonance tuning to see when the pulses are reaching the valves. Basically, what you don’t want (and 6-2-1s do) is for a high pressure pulse to be reflected back up a runner just as the exhaust valve opens, which makes it harder to evacuate all of the burnt gases.

A 6-3-1 properly made will make a pulse of low pressure reflect up at the right time, helping to evacuate burnt gases.

That’s not saying that 6-2-1s will make things worse than a stock manifold as most stock manifolds (especially for non performance cars) are generally worse. As a budget performance upgrade it’s certainly better than nothing, but you’re probably leaving quite a few horsepower on the table, or introducing flat-spots in the rev-range as the pulses fight against each other.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 05/31/2017 at 16:44

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Ya’ wanna hear how dumb I am? When I read 6-2-1, I was thinking cylinder numbers , as in, which cylinders were joined together on each half of the header. The headers above, then, would be 6-2-2, or simply 6-2, right?

I wouldn’t be opposed to having a set of headers made, if it made sense, and it didn’t require half a year’s salary.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/31/2017 at 17:20

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Haha, no worries ;) tons of terminology for cars i haven’t got a foggy about.

Although it doesn’t quite make logical sense, i’d say 6-2-2 would be the clearest name :)

If you do get a reasonable quote for custom headers let me know :) might consider them myself!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 05/31/2017 at 17:39

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We should discuss this possibility further. Where are you located?

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/31/2017 at 17:43

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South of the UK so a little ways away from anyone with a GMC unfortunately!